para informar.
I am Australian. If Four Corners was to be the basis for any justified claim ever to dismiss governments in Australia, in that case many governmments and many people would have been convicted, which they have not been. It is Television, not a court of law and whoever believes otherwise is a fool!!!!
Por
Malai Azul 2
à(s)
10:48
"Apesar de frágil, Timor-Leste é uma jovem democracia em que acreditamos. É o país que escolhemos para viver e trabalhar. Desde dia 28 de Abril muito se tem dito sobre a situação em Timor-Leste. Boatos, rumores, alertas, declarações de países estrangeiros, inocentes ou não, têm servido para transmitir um clima de conflito e insegurança que não corresponde ao que vivemos. Vamos tentar transmitir o que se passa aqui. Não o que ouvimos dizer... "
This is my blogchalk: Timor, Timor-Leste, East Timor, Dili, Portuguese, English, Malai Azul, politica, situação, Xanana, Ramos-Horta, Alkatiri, Conflito, Crise, ISF, GNR, UNPOL, UNMIT, ONU, UN.
14 comentários:
Important background from an Australian in Dili, pls share widely
Bob
Please circulate to our full list. Apologies for late dispatch of news.
Peter
Prime Minister Alkatiri makes President Gusmao
think twice
Today began looking very bad. The news was that on Tuesday June 20, the President sent an envelope to the Prime Minister containing a video tape of the June 19 4 Corners program from ABC TV in Australia, and a letter reaquiring him to resign by 5pm or he would be sacked. This amounts to a threat to breach of the Constitution. The 4 Corners program alleges that Fretilin created hit squads on the orders of Mari Alkatiri the Prime Minister and party general secretary.
Perhaps fortunately, the Prime Minister did not open the envelope until later that night, well after 5pm. However, the President had taken no action at the deadline.
A meeting of the Council of State was convened at about 10.30 am on June 21 - it is a 15 person adivsory council for the President and makes no decision. At the meeting, the President repeated his request for the Prime Minister to resign. The Prime Minister declined the request.
The President then said that if the Prime Minister would not resign, then he would resign. But the Prime Minister told him not to do that by any means, and that he would resign first. The Foreign Minister proposed that Alkatiri hand over to two Vice Prime Ministers.
The Prime Minister told that they had to realise that if he resigned under these circumstances that his whole government would resign, and the FRETILIN members would be antagonised, the Budget may not pass through the Parliament and the Electoral Law will be dealyed, and all in all this would not be good for the country or make things any better.
That prospect surprised both the President and the Foreign Minister.
The Prime Minister said that it was not up to him alone to decide whether to resign, and he had to consult with FRETILIN and with the Cabinet (Council of Ministers).
The meeting ended with the Prime Minister undertaking to inform the President of the decision after these consultations. The FRETILIN National Political Commission will meet on June 22 in the morning, and in the afternoon the Prime Minister and the President of the Parliament will inform the President of their views of the NPC. On Friday morning the Cabinet will meet. On Saturday the FRETILIN Central Committee will meet. So perhaps on Sunday or Monday there will be an announcement of the outcome of this process.
However, the psychology of the day went against the President. He has demanded the resignation of the Prime Minister two days in a row and he has not received it. Neither the President nor Foreign Minister were talking to the media or the Australian Embassy after the Council of State meeting today.
The Australian military has been more and more aggressive in telling people that Alkatiri is the 'ex-Prime Minister' or demanding that people tell them who they support. They raised the Australian Flag at the Non-Formal Education building at Vilaverde today, after stopping the Timorese flag from being raised. This compound is being used by the Education Ministry, and also used as a dormitory for some Australian soldiers.
On June 9 two Australian helicopters flew to Lospalos at the eastern end of the island to tell people there to support the President and oppose the Prime Minister. They were surprised by a very angry reaction and had to make a hasty departure.
The resigned Interior Minister Rogerio Lobato has been questioned by the police about the secret death squad allegations, but has not been arrested. He is at his home and has visited other homes in the area today, but he has Australian soldiers at his house. The Prosecutor-General said on TV on the night news on Juen 21 that there was an arrest warrant for Lobato but it had not been implemented.
At about 6pm on June 21, some people tried to burn down the Prosecutor-General's home, but the fire brigade put out the fire in time. There was a threat to burn his house on June 20. There is anger at him for not arresting the Prime Minister and not arresting Lobato. There were many homes burnt in Dili again this evening.
As far as I can tell from FRETILIN people, there is very strong support for Mari Alkatiri, and there is a determination to resolve the current tension with the President in a way which will uphold the Constitution, respect the position of FRETILIN, help to end the sustained period of crisis in the country, and really enable the 2007 elections to take place.
The danger is that the forces that want to change the government will not give up, especially now that they have pushed the President to the very brink of breaking the Constitution.
Peter Murphy
Dili, June 21, 2006
Se fizesem em Australia iam ao Tribunal com falsas acusacoes como em Timor Leste fazem como querem aplica-se a lei da selvajaria
Well in that case Timors President is a fool. I am Australian too, what a ridiculous notion to base the resignation of a Prime Minister of democratically elected based on a Australian program. It is a greta way to solve the issues around the Judicial sector in Timor, by not adhering to the institution at all.
Facts speak for themselves.
FOR: FRETILIN has 55 seats in a 88 seat Parliament. FRETILIN obtained 67% of votes during recent local elections while under the leadership of the Prime Minister.
AGAINST: Recent protests requesting the Prime Minister to step down 1000 (3000 Aust media estimates)then 300...yesterday well lets not count too few for the Australian newspaper or other Australian media to count.Like Horta said on the program "is a it's small for the scale of Dili and East Timor but it is true - the depth of dissatisfaction and criticism of the government as a whole and in particular the Prime Minister is much more widespread than the number of people demonstrating the other day - 1,000 or 2,000"
Compromise; let the people decide in upcoming elections.
Dear friends of Timor-Leste,
Please give the Australians some credit. Although the Australian government is hostile and paternalistic towards the East Timorese, we, the Australian people are not. The Australian government does not reflect the community's sentiments towards the East Timorese or the way that the East Timorese should run their country. To the contrary, the Australian community is rallying behind the East Timorese in order for them to achieve the independence they have dreamed and fought at a great loss to gain.
Please read the information below from some of the Australain friends of Timor-Leste on the current crisis overthere. And please act on it where possible.
CS
Prime Minister Alkatiri makes President Gusmao think twice
Today began looking very bad. The news was that on Tuesday June 20, the President sent an envelope to the Prime Minister containing a video tape of the June 19 4 Corners program from ABC TV in Australia, and a letter reaquiring him to resign by 5pm or he would be sacked. This amounts to a threat to breach of the Constitution. The 4 Corners program alleges that Fretilin created hit squads on the orders of Mari Alkatiri the Prime Minister and party general secretary.
Perhaps fortunately, the Prime Minister did not open the envelope until later that night, well after 5pm. However, the President had taken no action at the deadline.
A meeting of the Council of State was convened at about 10.30 am on June 21 - it is a 15 person adivsory council for the President and makes no decision. At the meeting, the President repeated his request for the Prime Minister to resign. The Prime Minister declined the request.
The President then said that if the Prime Minister would not resign, then he would resign. But the Prime Minister told him not to do that by any means, and that he would resign first. The Foreign Minister proposed that Alkatiri hand over to two Vice Prime Ministers.
The Prime Minister told that they had to realise that if he resigned under these circumstances that his whole government would resign, and the FRETILIN members would be antagonised, the Budget may not pass through the Parliament and the Electoral Law will be dealyed, and all in all this would not be good for the country or make things any better.
That prospect surprised both the President and the Foreign Minister.
The Prime Minister said that it was not up to him alone to decide whether to resign, and he had to consult with FRETILIN and with the Cabinet (Council of Ministers).
The meeting ended with the Prime Minister undertaking to inform the President of the decision after these consultations. The FRETILIN National Political Commission will meet on June 22 in the morning, and in the afternoon the Prime Minister and the President of the Parliament will inform the President of their views of the NPC. On Friday morning the Cabinet will meet. On Saturday the FRETILIN Central Committee will meet. So perhaps on Sunday or Monday there will be an announcement of the outcome of this process.
However, the psychology of the day went against the President. He has demanded the resignation of the Prime Minister two days in a row and he has not received it. Neither the President nor Foreign Minister were talking to the media or the Australian Embassy after the Council of State meeting today.
The Australian military has been more and more aggressive in telling people that Alkatiri is the 'ex-Prime Minister' or demanding that people tell them who they support. They raised the Australian Flag at the Non-Formal Education building at Vilaverde today, after stopping the Timorese flag from being raised. This compound is being used by the Education Ministry, and also used as a dormitory for some Australian soldiers.
On June 9 two Australian helicopters flew to Lospalos at the eastern end of the island to tell people there to support the President and oppose the Prime Minister. They were surprised by a very angry reaction and had to make a hasty departure.
The resigned Interior Minister Rogerio Lobato has been questioned by the police about the secret death squad allegations, but has not been arrested. He is at his home and has visited other homes in the area today, but he has Australian soldiers at his house. The Prosecutor-General said on TV on the night news on Juen 21 that there was an arrest warrant for Lobato but it had not been implemented. Lobato did not try to leave the country and was not stopped at the airport - all rumours.
At about 6pm on June 21, some people tried to burn down the Prosecutor-General's home, but the fire brigade put out the fire in time. There was a threat to burn his house on June 20. There is anger at him for not arresting the Prime Minister and not arresting Lobato. There were many homes burnt in Dili again this evening.
As far as I can tell from FRETILIN people, there is very strong support for Mari Alkatiri, and there is a determination to resolve the current tension with the President in a way which will uphold the Constitution, respect the position of FRETILIN, help to end the sustained period of crisis in the country, and really enable the 2007 elections to take place.
The danger is that the forces that want to change the government will not give up, especially now that they have pushed the President to the very brink of breaking the Constitution.
Peter Murphy
Dili, June 21, 2006
"Australians" indeed you lot are.
You guys are forgetting something very important.
If Howard came this close to being implicated in such a serious accusation his party would have sacked him right away to protect the party's good name and reputation. Now doubts about that.
The fact that Fretilin won the elections does not give the PM or the government a "blank check" to do whatever they want including breaking the law.
Plus the President has not sacked the PM but asked him to resign. It will certainly not be unconstitutional if he does so.
As far as people in australia would be concerned, they have seen people step down from their high horses for infractions far, far smaller than that.
to the anonymous above,
John Howard is still the PM after the AWB's wheat scandal isn'the? The Australian government is implicated seriously in a bid to prop up Saddam's regime through hundreds of millions of dollars in bribe, while convincing the people that Australia should send its troops to overthrow Saddam Hussein. C'mon.... no nukes, no WMDs, no terrorist hideouts, but just AU$300 million of bribes to Saddam Hussein.
"O problema que Timor-Leste está a passar é que se tornou uma república arquista, sem passar por uma interligação dos seus dirigentes para com os problemas e necessidades do seu povo.
Como o principal problema desse país é a extrema miséria em que o povo vive, onde a maioria da população ganha menos de 1 dólar por dia, o que os dirigentes nacionalistas deste ou qualquer país teriam de fazer de imediato era tentar aumentar essa quantia para pelo menos 5 dólares por dia.
Como?
A questão é tirar a quem tem para distribuir a quem não tem.
Como neste caso quem tem é o Estado, porque a iniciativa privada é pouco importante neste momento para a economia de Timor-Leste, e o Estado é detentor de quase toda a riqueza, basta à classe política ganhar menos para a distribuição de renda se tornar mais equilibrada.
Outro factor importante e de um despesismo imenso, são os cooperantes, a minha opinião é que se outros países querem ajudar Timor-Leste cooperando, no caso de Portugal, dando cursos para professores Timorenses de Português, terão de ser esses países que querem cooperar, que terão de pagar aos seus cooperantes, Timor-Leste, como país subdesenvolvido, apenas terá de pagar com o agrado e o respeito dos Timorenses e nada mais, noutra fase de desenvolvimento do País, voltar-se-á a ponderar no assunto e pedir dividendos, porque todos sabemos que não há almoços grátis.
Outro pormenor, quanto ganhará um deputado em Timor?
E Xanana Gusmão?
Será que Timor tem necessidade da existência de um parlamento como aqui é regra na Europa?
Não pode o povo eleger delegados que o representem, sem necessidade de eleições?
Porque tem este modelo de "Democracia" ocidental ser exportado para países que estão a começar uma nova experiência existencial autónoma.
A passagem de duas colonizações (a Portuguesa e a Indonésia) deveria ter despertado nos dirigentes de Timor-Leste um sentido de Pátria e uma compreensão das diferenças culturais dos seus cidadãos.
Primeiro de tudo ter-se-ia de salvaguardar e conseguir a unificação de um estado multicultural e isso não passa por arquismos, mas sim por múltiplos anarquismos, locais (em cada região) e depois nacionais.
O que proponho é reuniões de cidadãos (tribos, neste caso) que debatam abertamente os problemas que são realmente importantes para eles.
O Estado, porque existe, deveria ser o regulador e organizador de todas essas reuniões, até os cidadãos Timorenses se organizarem e criarem a sua própria ideia de Estado, ou de Nação, arquista ou anarquista conforme se viesse a propor.
Quando os cidadãos timorenses tiverem o poder de decidir o que realmente desejam então poder-se-iam organizar em Estado como melhor o acharem.
Até lá a função do Estado seria a de distribuir os apoios internacionais o mais igualitariamente possível. Quando numa sociedade em construção o estado adquire demasiados poderes torna-se uma ditadura como em Cuba em que Fidel Castro, reina num país em que povo está na miséria, mas ele é detentor das maiores fortunas do mundo (segundo a revista Forbes).
O estado só é necessário quando faz alguma coisa pelos seus cidadãos, quando deixa de fazer e apenas faz enriquecer alguns à sua custa, o estado deixa de fazer sentido e isto é válido em qualquer parte do mundo.
Penso, por fim, que a Língua Portuguesa poderá e deverá ter um papel unificador em Timor-Leste, muito maior do que qualquer força da GNR.
Se estes requisitos não forem preenchidos o que acontecerá é Timor tornar-se um estado mais da Austrália e criar com isso mais um foco de conflito na região, com a Indonésia, especialmente por causa do petróleo."
Manuel Pedro
gosh you certainly know how to mix things up don't ya!
You are saying that Howard would ever survive being accused of setting up armed liberal party militias to kill other australians?
don't be ridiculous!!!
His senior ex minister is up to the neck in shit and there are allegations by the chief commissioner of the police saying that the PM knew about the illegal armed civilian groups.
Now the PM did not have to give the direct order for their setup or to shoot at all to be considered guilty.
The fact that he knew something so bad was happening and did nothing to stop it makes him in the very least an accumplice. But since he is the head of the gov. with the power to stop it but did not is much more serious.
in the light of such 'prima facie" evidence Howard or evem Bush would have be forced to resign immediately.
THE LETTER AND THE VIDEO TAPE
"Prima facei" evidence...come on these are allegations made during a four corners report taken from rebels...who themselves have dubious backgrounds from sandal wood smuggling to being hired thugs. If you want to be legalistic then you should know assumptions in it self is not a precursor to any judgment.
The Four Corners report suggests the involvement of an ex minister not the Prime Minister with little evidence to substantiate the allegations, apart from an informal hand written note. The Commissioner who has direct access to the Prime Minister fails to use this exclusive right to organise an audience with the Prime Minister to raise such a substantial and sensitive issue. Instead the note was given to a secretary to be passed on to the Prime Minister. The procedure taken to raise or inform the Prime Minister of Police Commissioner Paul’s concerns is questionable. This was the only evidence that the Prime Minister knew of such arming of civilians, other than that NOT once in the program existed any evidence that formally implicates the Prime Minister to criminal negligence, or accomplice.
There are many underlying issues that have to be asked here. The continual calls for the resignation and sacking of the Prime Minister have come in many forms from allegations of corruption, to criminal responsibility of having ordered the arming civilians, all within a short period of time. The lack action taken by the President to disarm rebel soldiers who continually pledge allegiance to the President as if he was supreme commander of an insurrection. The infamous public speech by the President in regards to the “Lorosae-Loromonu” which instigated the burning of Taibessi market and varied attacks on the Lorosae population in Dili. The various irresponsible comments made by the President in respect to so called rebels. The various unconstitutional proposals made to remove the Parliament, then the Government now the Prime Minister. The lack of judgement by the President in requesting the resignation from the Prime Minister with the main reason allegations in a “video tape”.
Lets not kid ourselves there have been several other attempts or means that were used to try to remove the Prime Minister. The “letter and video tape” request points to sheer desperation to remove a Prime Minister where no legal basis exists for his removal.
All evidence suggest to a very sinister conspiracy to remove the Prime Minister of a democratically appointed Political Party, with 55 seats in Parliament where the closest Political Party has only 7 seats.
If the Prime Minister should remain in officer I think the truth would be rigorously pursued, it is then the reality of the current events may point to genuine implications of individuals relating to criminal responsibility and the attempt to remove a Government. There are some individuals in Timor Leste who are and should be concerned about this and not surprisingly wished the Prime Minister to just disappear from the Political spectrum.
Legally there are many points that can be argued raised or clarified but the greater principle in all this, is not about the Prime Minister or the President, it is about upholding democracy in Timor Leste, and not to establish precedent for the unconstitutional removal of any future Governments without the Rule of Law.
I am Australian I believe in democracy not hypocrisy.
this is a comedy...
by the way, the PR demanded the resign of the PM not asked!!
to demand such thing based on a program, it´s outrageous, this is not a high school for christ sake!!
furthermore, to ask to divide his position with 2 more appointed prime-ministers,... that´s SO ridiculous.... what country in the world has 2 more appointed PM... only if they been to Mars ans saw this kind of government structure.....
"If the Prime Minister should remain in officer I think the truth would be rigorously pursued"
You obviously have more confidence in the justice system in Timor than that which the PM has afforded to it in the past years.
In your hurried move to make your argument you have failed to answer my question.
Do you seriously believe that Howard would ever survive being accused of setting up armed liberal party militias to kill other australians or not having stopped it?
For the investigation to be properly undertaken the PM should step aside, even if temporarily, to allow the it to run the full length and breath of its course without any impairments from any existing legal and ethical imunities that members in office enjoy. This is a very basic principle of justice!
To be honest lets reverse the situation. Imagine if this was happening in Australia. What do you think would happen.
Your answer will be a clear demonstration of how serious and objective you are in regards to this matter
It is harsh to judge this situation without looking at it logically. Rationale would not be accomplished if an objective view of the current situation is done through comparisons between Timor’s Political system and Australia’s.
I do not disagree with your proposition that if such a situation were to occur in Australia the Prime Minister would step down. However the situation is quite complex, that is the situation is perplexed by the fact current allegations have been rebutted Prosecutor General in Timor Leste for this time being as he has made it clear that there exist to this date no substantial evidence for a case against the Prime Minister. If such there is no case then it would be extremely difficult to request the resignation of a Prime Minister wether in Australia or any where in the world for arguments sake.
There is also a Constitution in Timor a framework exists for the legal removal of a Prime Minister until this date there is also no basis for his removal within constitution and hence he is still the Prime Minister of Timor Leste.
Yes, you are quite right to suggest that there are weaknesses in the Timorese judicial system. Hense the Prime Minister himself requested that the United Nations carry out an independent investigation of recent events in Timor Leste. Since, it is not an internal investigation and should there be an impartial investigation until there is substantial results implicating the Prime Minister to the various doubtful and unconvincing accusations I don’t believe that he should resign as the PM. A resignation cannot be forced upon him and should be left to him within the realms of his own consciousness as no case against him can be conjured by the Prosecutor-General.
Such is the complexity of the current crisis in Timor Leste if I were the Prime Minister I too would not resign, because the Prime Minister could have resigned previously as a result of other serious to this day unsubstantiated allegation that sixty people were murdered by the Army in Tasi Tolu. Thank God he had not because then there would have been a miscarriage of justice.
If there was a legal or constitutional basis for his removal without him having to resign himself I have no doubt that the Prime Minister, the Government and the Parliament would be spared.
The current crisis is a testament to the importance of the Constitution in preserving and consolidating the future of Democratic principles in Timor Leste. As long as there is no substance for the removal of a Prime Minister, for principles of justice for the preservation of democracy for the defence of the constitution it is in the interest of Timor Leste that the Prime Minister does not step down even for the mere instance of temporary defeat of righteousness.
I would agree would you that there can be no reasonable comparison for the very fact that such a situation would be even unthinkable in Australia.
About the allegations being rebutted by the Prosecutor General only goes to prove his inability to act or think like a learned legal person. I am not a lawer but the mere fact that there are serious allegations from the Police Chief himself to suggest that the PM had been informed or had “knowledge” of what was happening is enough to launch an inquiry into what kind of role the PM played in the whole affair. If not by direct action perhaps by gross dereliction of duty to stop a serious crime being committed. As sou said the “various doubtful and unconvincing accusations” can only be proven to be so if that investigation takes place. This alone suffices to justify an investigation into the PM’s role in the ensuing crises.
I am absolutely astounded that the PG has not realised this yet. Or is it because the PM is still the PM and the uncertainty of his demise is playing with the PG’s head? This is precisely why the PM should at least step aside albeit temporarily to allow the investigations to run their proper course something he stubbornly refuses to do. In the end he is also damaging the image and reputation of his party.
Addicionally, the legality of the initial deployment of the Armed Forces to Tacitolo which resulted in civilian deaths and defection of other army personnel is also in question. The law regulating the armed forces is very clear regarding the legal conditions that must be satisfied before it can be legally deployed. There is serious evidence to suggest that the PM issued an illegal deployment order.
Le be just say that the President is putting strong pressure on the PM to resign as a reaction to the PM insistence not to step aside. This political stalemate could have been avoided had the PM taken steps to nominate some other minister of his trust to take “custody” of the affairs of his Office and to temporary relegate himself a secondary cerimonial role until such time when he is fully cleared from any wrongdoing. This would have been a gesture that would demonstrate his full cooperation and seriousness in wanting the truth to be revealed and it would have been an offering for the President to appease the demands for his total dismissal.
I think I have made it quite clear why it is in my opinion in the best interest of Timor that the Prime Minister should not resign or even be forced to resign in such circumstances as mentioned before.
You insist that the PM should resign as to allow for an investigation to run its course and in due time should he be cleared of allegations be reinstated. This is undoubtedly impractical as any investigation will be made into the crisis. This investigation should look into allegations of a coup, into why Alfredo instigated the confrontations between the rebels and FFDTL. So there runs the risks of a gross miscarriage of justice should the PM resign for an investigation that until now has no basis. If you did not read my previous statement one reason I gave for the PM not to step down for an investigation at this time being is that allegations in Timor are quite dubious in nature if you consider there was allegations of 60 bodies buried in Tasi Tolu to which no evidence exist to substantiate this claim. If the PM stood down for that allegation then reinstated and now he will have to step down and later be reinstated should these allegation turn out to be false.
The country faces serious problems and it needs the cooperation of all sides of the issue and if the President insists on the PM’s resignation without any real principle authority, Timors democracy and constitution will be futile.
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